Skip to main content
The NCI Community Hub will be retiring in May 2024. For more information please visit the NCIHub Retirement Page:https://ncihub.cancer.gov/groups/ncihubshutdown/overview
close

eeDAP registration questions

Version 2
by (unknown)
Version 3
by (unknown)

Deletions or items before changed

Additions or items after changed

1 -
The following is a conversation helping an eeDAP user get started.
+
The following is a conversation helping an eeDAP user get started. Start at the bottom.
2
3 ---
4
5 Hello Prarthana,
6
7 Thank you for your explanation. Here’s responses to your questions
8
9 1.The high-resolution registration refines the low-resolution registration results. They are not independent. That said, we have data on the accuracy of the registration of what the pathologist sees, measured by the microscope user.
10 2.The purpose of registration is to move the microscope view to the same target ROI as WSI image. We then do an automatic re-registration to fine tune this to what the pathologist/camera are already viewing. This is working very well, accuracy is 2.5 um for our first tests.
11 3.Yes. eeDAP can open ROI images in those formats. We suggest that you treat each ROI image as a separate WSI image in the input file. And in each task, extract the whole image. I attach a sample input file and corresponding image [[File(manySmallROI.DAPSI)]] [[File(sampleROI.JPG)]]. ( But this can only work in digital mode)
12
13 Regarding how to employ eeDAP for image quality evaluation: you could develop the eeDAP Matlab tasks, which are currently very modular. Each task has a unique contribution to different steps in the eeDAP workflow:
14 • Load_Input_File
15 • Update_GUI_Elements
16 • NextButtonPressed
17 • Save_Results
18
19 Check this task out, for example: (https://github.com/DIDSR/eeDAP/blob/master/src/tasks/task_count.m ). You could do your image analysis in the “Update_GUI_Elements” procedure, virtually clicking through the gui or short-cutting the gui part. Another idea would be to do your image analysis in the “Load_Input_File” procedure, include the saving of results, and shutdown eeDAP.
20
21 Yes, once our video manual is cleared, we will share it. It can help you have a better understanding of eeDAP. Please let us know, if you have other questions. Thank you.
22
23 Regards,
24 Qi and Brandon
25
26 ==== From: Shrestha, Prarthana ====
27 Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2017 8:06 AM
28 To: Gallas, Brandon D.; Gong, Qi *
29 Cc: Gavrielides, Marios A; Abels, Esther; Kornmann, Liselotte; Nelis, Mischa
30 Subject: RE: eeDAP registration questions
31
32 Dear Brandon and Qi
33
34 Thank you for your efforts, I highly appreciate your coaching. Please find my answers inline in italic fonts.
35
36 Regards
37 Prarthana
38
39 ==== From: Gallas, Brandon D. [mailto:Brandon.Gallas@fda.hhs.gov] ====
40 Sent: 2017 May 02 7:28 AM
41 To: Shrestha, Prarthana; Gong, Qi *
42 Cc: Gavrielides, Marios A; Abels, Esther; Kornmann, Liselotte; Nelis, Mischa
43 Subject: RE: eeDAP registration questions
44
45 Hello Prarthana,
46
47 Thank you for your explanation. There are some growing pains, and we appreciate being able to coach you through it.
48
49 *Do you mind if we share this discussion?* We think that it will help others, kind of a case study. Nothing proprietary here, just trying to make the connections for you and everyone else.
50 - ''It may be helpful to anyone learning the tool, I also don’t see any proprietary issue on it.''
51
52 In order to help you and others, we are also going to try and do a video showing the start of a microRT study, showing the registration steps. Maybe that will help too. Would you be interested in a T-con just demo the registration process?
53 - ''Definitely, it will be very appreciated.''
54
55 Here’s responses to your questions
56 1. What magnification level of WSI is used for global registration? If it is hard coded, can we use a image ROI at the right magnification level in general image formats like bmp, png or tiff (instead of a pyramidal WSI format).
57 a. There are two levels of global resolution: low and high. The user can set the magnification level of global registration in input file: “ mag_lres”, “mag_hres”. Low-resolution registration usually only needs to be done once for each wsi. Then a “.mat” file is saved alongside the wsi with low-resolution results. High-resolution registration must be done for each wsi each time you run a study with that wsi. You don’t use a calibration slide. You use the study wsi.
58 - ''Calibration slide was proposed only for measuring registration accuracy to avoid all the complexities of measuring registration of deformable models. Are the two levels of registration are independent of each other, meaning we need to validate both of their accuracies? Or the high-resolution registration is based on top of the low-resultion registration, meaning the validation of high-resolution would be sufficient to cover the low-resolution registration?''
59
60 2. Is it also possible to use only a partial content and not the full glass slide for registration? If so, we can use a number of patterns for testing registration accuracy, located in a same phantom slide .
61 a. In global registration, software asks the user to do registration for 3 anchor points. These 3 anchors can be located anywhere on the slide, and don’t have to cross whole slide. But we recommend user spread these points out as far as possible for best results.
62 3. As I understood, the registration is done offline during preparation phase. During data collection the eeDAP navigates, as provided in its task-list, to the glass slide co-ordinates for microscope view and WSI ROI co-ordinates for monitor display. Then, would it be possible to obtain the registered co-ordinates for a certain magnification (say, 40x) from eeDAP and then we can use other programs to extract the registered ROI?
63 a. No. Registration is not offline. Low-res registration can be, but high-res should not be.
64 b. We have used ImageScope to extract and display the ROI. Essentially, for each task/location, eeDAP launches the corresponding image with ImageScope (system command line execution). Before the launch we create an xml file for the wsi specifying the FOV annotation, and this annotation is opened along with the wsi in ImageScope. The amount of programming effort will depend on how different your desired workflow is form our workflow. Do you have Matlab? Do you know Matlab?
65 - ''I’ve been using Matlab in algorithm design and prototyping in regular basis, so it should not be the bottleneck. However, the whole registration and display procedure is still not clear to me – how can we employ it in the context of image quality evaluation? Maybe a demo would be a great help.''
66
67 4. In the context of image quality evaluation, we do not need a complete WSI but only a cropped ROI (like bmp format) at 40x. Furthermore, the ROIs are subjected (offline) to image degradations to be presented to readers. Can we use eeDAP for displaying these degraded images and collect data on them?
68 a. We can do that if the format is supported by bioformats (http://www.openmicroscopy.org/site/support/bio-formats5.4/supported-formats.html ).
69 - ''The ROI used in image quality evaluation are not in WSI formats, but a regular image file like bmp and jpeg.''
70 Thanking you in advance.
71
72 Best regards
73 Prarthana
74
75 ==== From: Shrestha, Prarthana ====
76 Sent: Monday, May 01, 2017 10:21 AM
77 To: Gallas, Brandon D.; Gong, Qi *
78 Cc: Gavrielides, Marios A; Abels, Esther; Kornmann, Liselotte; Nelis, Mischa
79 Subject: RE: eeDAP
80
81 Hello Brandon and Qi
82
83 My question on registration was an attempt to understand the eeDAP system so that I can design test cases to validate registration functionality for our context of use. I have not tried the registration of eeDAP yet, therefore my questions are quite basic . Here are some more follow-ups:
84
85 - What magnification level of WSI is used for global registration? If it is hard coded, can we use a image ROI at the right magnification level in general image formats like bmp, png or tiff (instead of a pyramidal WSI format).
86 - Is it also possible to use only a partial content and not the full glass slide for registration? If so, we can use a number of patterns for testing registration accuracy, located in a same phantom slide .
87 - As I understood, the registration is done offline during preparation phase. During data collection the eeDAP navigates, as provided in its task-list, to the glass slide co-ordinates for microscope view and WSI ROI co-ordinates for monitor display. Then, would it be possible to obtain the registered co-ordinates for a certain magnification (say, 40x) from eeDAP and then we can use other programs to extract the registered ROI?
88
89 In the context of image quality evaluation, we do not need a complete WSI but only a cropped ROI (like bmp format) at 40x. Furthermore, the ROIs are subjected (offline) to image degradations to be presented to readers. Can we use eeDAP for displaying these degraded images and collect data on them?
90
91 Thanking you in advance.
92
93 Best regards
94 Prarthana
95
96 ==== From: Gallas, Brandon D. [mailto:Brandon.Gallas@fda.hhs.gov] ====
97 Sent: 2017 Apr 28 8:23 PM
98 To: Shrestha, Prarthana; Gong, Qi *
99 Cc: Gavrielides, Marios A; Abels, Esther; Kornmann, Liselotte; Nelis, Mischa
100 Subject: RE: eeDAP
101
102 Prarthana,
103
104 The registration methods are hard-coded. There is global registration before data collection to learn the relationship between the WSI coordinates and the microscope stage coordinates.
105
106 For data collection: eeDAP is designed to show the pathologists a specific set of evaluation locations/ROIs. This is easy for WSI: specify the locations and extract ROIs. We are trying to replicate this on the microscope by directing eeDAP to navigate the stage to the same locations.
107
108 So, we are struggling with your question. Perhaps it would help for you to tell us what is your goal. Why do you want to do the registration differently? Do you have a different data collection paradigm compared to above or is registration failing for your images?
109
110 Brandon and Qi
111
112
113 ==== From: Shrestha, Prarthana ====
114 Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 9:22 AM
115 To: Gong, Qi *
116 Cc: Gallas, Brandon D.; Gavrielides, Marios A; Abels, Esther; Kornmann, Liselotte; Nelis, Mischa
117 Subject: RE: eeDAP
118
119 Hi Qi,
120
121 Thank you for the clarifications. As you suspected, I had provided a full path to the "rgb_lut_gamma_inv1p8.txt". Please find my input file in the attachment. [[File(sample_input_CUM.dapsi)]]
122
123 Another question, about image registration functionality of the eeDAP tool: does the registration always work with microscope-view image as reference and WSI as candidate? Or is it also possible to use a region-of-interest in a WSI as a reference?
124
125 Best regards
126 Prarthana
127
128 ==== From: Gong, Qi * [mailto:Qi.Gong@fda.hhs.gov] ====
129 Sent: 2017 Apr 27 8:23 PM
130 To: Shrestha, Prarthana
131 Cc: Gallas, Brandon D.; Gavrielides, Marios A; Abels, Esther; Kornmann, Liselotte; Nelis, Mischa
132 Subject: RE: eeDAP
133
134 Hello Prarthana,
135
136 All the GUIs look correct. The eeDAP works as expected. Thank you for trying the software. There are several things I want to clarify.
137
138 1. The software tries to find the "gui_graphics" folder in the working directory. Since the "start in" box for the shortcut is empty, the software can't find the folder "gui_graphics".
139
140 2. Did you change the input file line "rgb_lut_slot_1 = icc_profiles\rgb_lut_gamma_inv1p8.txt" to the full path of "rgb_lut_gamma_inv1p8.txt" . Otherwise, I expected you to get an error that eeDAP can't find that file either. When I tried to replicate your situation, I got that error before the gui_graphics error.
141
142 3. "digital.reader.20170426T140257.sample_input_CUM.dapso" is the result file. It records your study result and time consuming for each task. The folder "digital.reader.20170426T140257.sample_input_CUM" saves digital and camera ROI images for each task depending on the “saveimages” flag in the input file. "3" means only save the camera image, you can also save the WSI patches, neither, or both. Due to you do digital version study, there is no camera image, and the folder is empty. The input file describes the options for this flag. These options are missing from the user manual (another update needed, thanks).
143
144 Maybe you could please send your input file to us? It might provide some useful information for us. Thank you.
145
146 Best Regards,
147 Qi
148
149 ==== From: Gallas, Brandon D. ====
150 Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 12:47 PM
151 To: Shrestha, Prarthana; Gong, Qi *
152 Cc: Gavrielides, Marios A; Abels, Esther; Kornmann, Liselotte; Nelis, Mischa
153 Subject: RE: eeDAP
154
155 Success!
156
157 Thanks for trail blazing. Your feedback and a couple others will help us refine manual and tips, etc.
158
159 Brandon
160
161 ==== From: Shrestha, Prarthana ====
162 Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2017 8:20 AM
163 To: Gallas, Brandon D.; Gong, Qi *
164 Cc: Gavrielides, Marios A; Abels, Esther; Kornmann, Liselotte; Nelis, Mischa
165 Subject: RE: eeDAP
166 Hi Brandon and Qi
167
168 Thanks you for the recommendations. Please find my feedback inline below in black italic texts, accompanied by some screenshots.
169
170 Best regards
171 Prarthana
172
173 ==== From: Gallas, Brandon D. [mailto:Brandon.Gallas@fda.hhs.gov] ====
174 Sent: 2017 Apr 25 6:10 PM
175 To: Gong, Qi *; Shrestha, Prarthana
176 Cc: Gavrielides, Marios A; Abels, Esther; Kornmann, Liselotte; Nelis, Mischa
177 Subject: RE: eeDAP
178
179 We wanted to make sure our answer was as clear as possible. So Qi and I sat down worked through some tests. Here is an updated response:
180
181 The path to gui_graphics is set in the code. The user can’t/shouldn’t have to provide a link to any components of the software. We need to ask you some questions to get better understanding about the error.
182 1. Did you create a shortcut for the eeDAP and run the software by short cut? If yes, can you please take a screen shot to show me the “Properties” window for the short cut?
183
184 * ''Yes, please find the screen shot of the “Properties” of the shortcut:''
185
186
187 2. Did you copy the eeDAP.exe software or any other file out from the installation directory (‘C:\Program Files\eedap4p0\application\’)? As the path for ‘zooming_allowed.bmp‘ is compiled in the software, folders such as ‘gui_graphics’ should be already installed in the same directory as eeDAP.exe. Don’t move anything in or out of the eeDAP installation except for input files.
188 * ''No I didn’t copy any exe file or change folders. The folder ‘eedap4p0’ contains the following folders: ‘appdata’, ‘application’, ‘sys’, ‘uninstall’. The folder ‘application’ contains ‘gui_graphics’, ‘icc_profiles’,’sample_inputfiles’ and also the file ‘eedap4p0.exe’.''
189
190 Recommendations:
191 * You may want to reinstall eeDAP in a non-system directory, a directory you have control of like My Documents. This will make sure all program files are where they belong. Also, there will not be any permission issues if we need to write any new files.
192 * ''I reinstalled eeDAP and indeed it appears to be working. In the folder ‘\application\sample_inputfiles\Output_Files’ there is an empty folder with name ‘digital.reader.20170426T140257.sample_input_CUM’ and a 3K file ‘digital.reader.20170426T140257.sample_input_CUM.dapso’. I’ve put the screenshots below in order, please verify if they are as expected.''
193 * Next, it appears that the shortcut to eeDAP.exe that is automatically created by the installation doesn’t actually say where to “Start in”. Get rid of it. This appears to be the source of our problems. You can create a new short cut by right-click eeDAP.exe and drag it wherever you want it.
194 * ''It seems to be the case. I still get the same error message ’ File zooming_allowed.bmp does not exist’, if I try to run from the automatically created shortcut.''
195
196 We are looking forward to hearing how our response helps. Thanks for the feedback.
197
198 Brandon and Qi
199
200 [[Image(emailDiscussionRegistration1.jpg)]]
201 [[Image(emailDiscussionRegistration2.jpg)]]
202 [[Image(emailDiscussionRegistration3.jpg)]]
203 [[Image(emailDiscussionRegistration4.jpg)]]
204 [[Image(emailDiscussionRegistration5.jpg)]]
205 [[Image(emailDiscussionRegistration6.jpg)]]
206 [[Image(emailDiscussionRegistration7.jpg)]]
207
208 ==== From: Gong, Qi * ====
209 Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 11:18 AM
210 To: Shrestha, Prarthana
211 Cc: Gallas, Brandon D.; Gavrielides, Marios A; Abels, Esther; Kornmann, Liselotte; Nelis, Mischa
212 Subject: RE: eeDAP
213
214 We wanted to make sure our answer was as clear as possible. So Qi and I sat down worked through some tests. Here is an updated response:
215
216 The path to gui_graphics is set in the code. The user can’t/shouldn’t have to provide a link to any components of the software. We need to ask you some questions to get better understanding about the error.
217 1. Did you create a shortcut for the eeDAP and run the software by short cut? If yes, can you please take a screen shot to show me the “Properties” window for the short cut?
218 2. Did you copy the eeDAP.exe software or any other file out from the installation directory (‘C:\Program Files\eedap4p0\application\’)? As the path for ‘zooming_allowed.bmp‘ is compiled in the software, folders such as ‘gui_graphics’ should be already installed in the same directory as eeDAP.exe. Don’t move anything in or out of the eeDAP installation except for input files.
219
220 Recommendations:
221 • You may want to reinstall eeDAP in a non-system directory, a directory you have control of like My Documents. This will make sure all program files are where they belong. Also, there will not be any permission issues if we need to write any new files.
222 • Next, it appears that the shortcut to eeDAP.exe that is automatically created by the installation doesn’t actually say where to “Start in”. Get rid of it. This appears to be the source of our problems. You can create a new short cut by right-click eeDAP.exe and drag it wherever you want it.
223
224 We are looking forward to hearing how our response helps. Thanks for the feedback.
225
226 Brandon and Qi
227
228 ==== From: Gong, Qi * ====
229 Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 11:18 AM
230 To: Shrestha, Prarthana
231 Cc: Gallas, Brandon D.; Gavrielides, Marios A; Abels, Esther; Kornmann, Liselotte; Nelis, Mischa
232 Subject: RE: eeDAP
233
234 Hello Prarthana,
235
236 Thank you very much for trying our software. We didn’t get an opportunity to communicate with end user.
237
238 That path is set in the code, user can’t provide the link to software. I need to ask you some questions to get better understanding about the error.
239 1. Did you create a shortcut for the eeDAP and run the software by short cut? If yes, can you please show me the “Properties” window for the short cut?
240 2. Did you copy the eeDAP.exe software or any other file out from ‘C:\Program Files\eedap4p0\application\’? As the path for ‘zooming_allowed.bmp‘ is compiled in the software, folder ‘gui_graphics’ should be put in the same directory as eeDAP.exe.
241
242 My recommendation is this. First, reinstall eeDAP to another directory but not ‘C:\Program Files’. Because for some computers, we need Administration permission to visit or write file to that directory. Second, don’t move anything out from ‘application’ folder and run the eeDAP.exe in that folder too (don’t use the shortcut). I think the ‘dapsi’ input file and WSI image can be stored in other directory except ‘C:\Program Files’. Please try these when you are convenience. Thank you again.
243
244 Best Regards,
245 Qi
246
247 ==== From: Shrestha, Prarthana ====
248 Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 5:40 AM
249 To: Gong, Qi *
250 Cc: Gallas, Brandon D.; Gavrielides, Marios A; Abels, Esther; Kornmann, Liselotte; Nelis, Mischa
251 Subject: RE: eeDAP
252
253 Hello Qi,
254
255 I tried the CUM-1.ndpi WSI with the ‘dapsi’ file you sent with the last email. Now it looks like the ExtratROIs is successfully executed; there are five tif images generated in folder Temporary_Task_Images. However, when I select the Viewing mode to ‘Digital’ and press ‘Start The Test’ a Matlab application error pops up saying ‘File zooming_allowed.bmp does not exist’.
256
257 In my system the file ‘zooming_allowed.bmp’ is located at ‘C:\Program Files\eedap4p0\application\gui_graphics’. How and where can I provide this link?
258
259 Best regards
260 Prarthana
261
262 ==== From: Gong, Qi * ====
263 Sent: Friday, April 21, 2017 2:51 PM
264 To: 'Shrestha, Prarthana'
265 Cc: Gallas, Brandon D.; Gavrielides, Marios A; Abels, Esther; Kornmann, Liselotte; Nelis, Mischa
266 Subject: RE: eeDAP
267
268 Hello Prarthana,
269
270 Thank you for testing our eeDAP software. We would like to share with you some sample WSI images. Could you please provide a Cloud address, so we can upload the file (about 3.4 GB)? Unfortunately, we aren't able to use google drive or Dropbox within the office.
271
272 I've also generated a sample input file [https://github.com/DIDSR/eeDAP/blob/master/src/sample_inputfiles/sample_input_ndpi.dapsi LINK] for image CMU-1.ndpi. The image can download from [http://openslide.cs.cmu.edu/download/openslide-testdata/Hamamatsu/ LINK]. You need to edit the following line to the CMU-1.ndpi saving path.
273 "wsi_slot_1 = C:\000_whole_slides\CMU-1.ndpi"
274
275 Please let us know if you have any questions or comments. Thank you.
276
277 Best Regards,
278 Qi
279
280
281 ====From: Shrestha, Prarthana ====
282 Sent: Friday, April 21, 2017 11:01 AM
283 To: Gallas, Brandon D.
284 Cc: Gavrielides, Marios A; Gong, Qi *; Abels, Esther; Kornmann, Liselotte; Nelis, Mischa
285 Subject: eeDAP
286
287 Hi Brandon
288
289 As we’d discussed in our earlier t-con, I did a test drive of eeDAP in digital mode. I was able to install and run until extract ROIs on a sample WSI (ndip format) downloaded from: http://openslide.cs.cmu.edu/download/openslide-testdata/Hamamatsu/. However, since I have no clue about the content of the WSI, ended up with an error in ExtractTOI: ‘Bottom slide goes outside of the WSI’. Maybe you could also share some example WSIs, as given in ‘sample_inputfiles’?
290
291 I also checked if Matlab can open the Philips WSI formats: iSyntax and BigTiff; and it didn’t work. The tiff format is supported by ObjectiveView. It is also claimed to be understood by OpenSlide but couldn’t verify. So seems like it will take some effort to make Philips formats read by eeDAP. I will also consult our experts in Image Management System. Shall we set up a technical meeting to address the issue?
292
293 Thanks in advance.
294
295 Best regards
296 Prarthana